Summary
It’s our first episode! Billy looks for an old internet fight with Beyoncé and John shares a story about pigeon races.
(By the way, we decided to change the name of this feed after we recorded the episode. It’s called Overunderstood now.)
Show notes
Beyoncé on the early internet:
- RIP James Getty
- Survivor by Destiny’s Child
- Destiny’s Child interview with MTV in 2001
- Xanga fights for its life with crowdfunding bid (Daily Dot)
- Email my Heart (Britney Spears) lyrics on Genius
- My Internet Girl (Aaron Carter) lyrics on Genius
- Video for IM Me (Brittany Cleary). It must be the real one because it says Official.
- Hated (Nikki Cleary) from Mean Girls
- If You Had My Love (Jennifer Lopez) video from 1999 (highly internetty)
Pigeon racers:
- Rainbow Farm: The domestic siege that time forgot. In 2001, two men were killed by the FBI at a farm in Michigan. Then, 9/11 happened.
- A Pigeon King Watches His Flock, and His Back
- Here is that episode of The Daily with Don McNeil, one of the New York Times’s lead reporters on coronavirus.
Transcript
John: What are we calling these?
Billy: Well, that’s a great question.
Regina: I, whenever s- a man over explains something to me, I say, “Overstood.”
Adrianne: You, you say, “Overstood?”
Regina: Overstood. Because it’s like, you’ve been explaining this to me for 25 minutes.
John: Mm.
Regina: And I understood it within 35 seconds.
John: It’s, it’s stood too much.
Regina: Yeah, so it has overstood its welcome.
Adrianne: That’s good.
Regina: Um…
Billy: So, that’s the perfect name for our bonus show.
John: Overstood.
Regina: Yeah. Overstood.
Billy: Is this the show? Are we doing the show?
Regina: I think we might be.
Adrianne: Sure. What show?
Billy: Overstood.
Regina: Overstood.
Adrianne: Oh.
Billy: Okay. So, uh, welcome everyone to Overstood. Our bonus show.
John: You’ve paid us money for this.
Regina: God, I’m so sorry.
Billy: You’ve paid us money for this, and you’re quickly gonna realize-
John: It wasn’t worth it.
Billy: … it, yeah, you’re quickly gonna realize it wasn’t worth it. And that you’re so sorry.
Regina: Unless you have lots of money.
Billy: Oh, I just realized I’m not using my windscreen. Hold on.
John: Amateur hour.
Adrianne: I’m using my windscreen.
Regina: I imagine Jon’s nightmares are just filled with Billy’s wrestling noises.
Billy: No, this is the show where you’re gonna realize how much we edit the regular show.
Adrianne: Is that what this is? Nobody explained to me what this is.
Billy: Yeah.
Regina: Oh, that’s totally what this is. Yeah.
Adrianne: All right.
Billy: It’s a chance, you know, to share some more intimate time with our audience, some more real, raw, unedited time.
Regina: Oh, please don’t use that voice.
Billy: Some real…
John: There was a good dark L in what you just said.
Billy: In what? Which word?
Regina: Raw.
Adrianne: Raw.
Billy: Well, how do you… You say it with an L?
Regina: No, you say it with an L.
Billy: Well, how do you say it?
John: Raw.
Regina: Say, “Raw,” Billy.
Billy: Raw? Like rah rah shis kabob?
Regina: Billy, how do, how do you like your steak cooked?
Billy: What?
Regina: How do you like your steak cooked?
Billy: Uh, medium well.
Regina: Oh, yeah, actually I forgot that you wouldn’t say, “Raw,” you would say rare.
Billy: Yeah. W- what’s wrong with you?
John: Who would say, “Raw”?
Billy: You’re going into a steakhouse asking for a raw steak?
Regina: Please do not cook it at all.
Billy: Wow.
John: Um, what are we talking about? Do we have anything to talk about?
Regina: Yeah, Bill- Billy has notes.
John: Great.
Billy: Well, we should establish that this, we’re going to sort of use this time and this show to talk through stories that maybe we started to look into but have a clear answer, or some other loose ends, or just interesting stuff that we encounter in our research for the show that doesn’t quite meet the qualification for our regular show, which is like, something that is unsolved that we have to go out and solve ourselves. We still want all that stuff to be publicly available, any original reporting we do, but this is like interesting stuff that we find as we’re traversing the internet that is sort of already understood.
Regina: Perhaps even overstood.
Billy: Exactly, yeah. Maybe even overstood.
Regina: But interesting.
Billy: Um, okay. So, should I go through my thing?
John: Yeah, you should.
Billy: Okay.
Regina: Oh, yeah.
Billy: So, what I wanna talk about involves Beyonce.
Regina: Mm.
Billy: You guys familiar with Beyonce? Beyonce Knowles?
Regina: I’m listening.
Billy: Okay. Well, I’m a long time fan.
Regina: Mm-hmm.
Billy: Um, in middle school, I actually had a song called James Getty that I would go around and sing, which was a spoof of the Destiny’s Child song Bootylicious.
Regina: Oh, God, Billy.
Billy: With a lyric about this guy, James Getty, who was a regionally famous Abraham Lincoln impersonator.
John: Oh my God.
Regina: Billy, I can’t-
Adrianne: Everything I hear about Billy in high school makes him sound so frustrating.
Regina: I can’t, I cannot imagine being friends with Billy in high school.
Adrianne: You would’ve been, though.
John: I probably would’ve been friends with Billy in high school, I’m gonna be honest.
Billy: You wanna hear how the song went? Okay, hold on.
Regina: No, please don’t.
Billy: Let’s see.
John: No one said we did.
Billy: So, it’s kinda like… I don’t think you’re ready for James Getty. I don’t think you’re ready for James Getty. I don’t think you’re ready for him ‘cause he looks like President Lincoln, comma, Abe.
Regina: You say, “Comma?”
Billy: Well, yeah, that’s how I made it, you know, it’s like, it’s like a parody. ‘Cause it’s like, you know in the original song it’s like, “’Cause my body too bootylicious for ya, babe.” So, I made it, “‘Cause he looks like President Lincoln, comma, Abe.”
Regina: Ugh, but they didn’t announce their grammar.
Billy: Well, I’m not Beyonce, okay?
Regina: It’s clear.
Billy: Anyway.
Adrianne: But you were a Beyonce fan in high school.
Billy: Yeah.
Adrianne: Segue.
Billy: I would rewrite her song, w- w- her songs with like, my own lyrics that were relevant to my life and my experience.
Regina: Right, yes, no, Beyonce definitely wrote her lyrics to be appropriated by a white boy in, uh, outside of Philadelphia.
John: You could’ve done Lose Yourself. Mom’s Spaghetti would’ve, would’ve scanned as fine.
Regina: Yeah, Lose Yourself would’ve been, would’ve been great, yeah.
Billy: Oh my God. Am I gonna get canceled ‘cause I wrote James Getty, my Bootylicious parody about the regionally famous Abraham Lincoln impersonator, James Getty?
John: I can think of no better way to get canceled, though.
Regina: Yeah, it, you deserve it maybe. But…
Billy: Well, I swear this was like extremely topical comedy at the time.
Regina: Mm-hmm.
Billy: Bootylicious had just come out. James Getty was still alive.
Adrianne: Billy was very popular.
Billy: I was very popular. Anyway. James Getty died in 2015, by the way. So, RIP.
Regina: RIP.
Adrianne: RIP.
Billy: RIP, a real one.
Regina: Let’s move on.
Billy: Sorry, the point is that I’m a long time Beyonce fan and Destiny’s Child fan.
Regina: ‘Kay.
Billy: But I don’t wanna talk about Bootylicious, I wanna talk about the single that actually came out right before that. Does anyone know what that was?
Regina: It, I mean, if you say the song, I’m sure we know it, but…
Billy: Pop quiz. No, this is a pop quiz.
John: Uh, was it, um, uh… Hang on. Uh, it’s not, uh, Jesus, um…
Billy: Here’s a hint. It was off of the 2001 album Survivor.
Regina: Survivor.
John: Is it Survivor?
Billy: Yes.
Adrianne: I was gonna guess that.
Billy: Great job. So, yeah, so Survivor. So, this song came on the other day, you know, occasionally Kaitlin and I will play, you know, like some music from our era, from our time, for our daughter.
Regina: I do it almost daily. Not for my daughter, but for myself.
John: For his daughter.
Billy: Anyway, I have an observation about something in the lyrics of Survivor. So, I’m gonna do another brief little quiz here. See if you can fill in the blanks on these lyrics. So, this is part of the song Survivor, this part was sung by Kelly Rowland, uh, by the way. But the song was written and produced by Beyonce, uh, and a producer named Anthony Dent, who wrote and produced two songs on the album. But Beyonce was like the consistent, Beyonce wrote and produced all of the songs on that album. She has writing and producing credits. Actually, her dad has a writing credit on this song.
Regina: Mm.
Billy: Matthew Knowles, which is kinda weird.
John: Huh.
Regina: Yeah.
Billy: ‘Cause he was their manager. So, he was like a business person, not a songwriter. So, that, I think this is the only song he has writing credits on. Anyway, we can circle back to why that might be, uh, later. But the important thing is that like, this is likely from Beyonce’s perspective, even though Kelly sings this part. Here are the lyrics. “Wishing you the best. Pray that you are blessed. Much success, no stress, and lots of happiness. I’m better than that. I’m not gon’ blast you on the radio. I’m better than that. I’m not gon’ lie on you and your family, oh. I’m better than that. I’m not gonna hate on you in the magazines. I’m better than that. I’m not gon’ compromise my Christianity. I’m better than that. You know I’m not gon’ blank you on the blank.”
Regina: Diss you on the internet.
Billy: Ding, ding, ding, yes, that’s correct.
John: What?
Adrianne: Ooh.
Billy: What, what was it?
Regina: “You know I’m not gonna diss you on the internet ‘cause my momma taught me better than that.”
Billy: Mm.
Adrianne: Oof, nailed it, Regina.
Regina: I loved this song, like, loved this song. It was, like- … my first feminist anthem.
Billy: It’s interesting when you Google, actually, when you Google these lyrics, I realize Google’s lyrics are wrong. Uh-
Regina: Yeah, they’re always wrong. Also, they steal them from Genius, but okay.
Billy: Well-
Regina: Mm-hmm.
Billy: … Genius’ lyrics are correct, so shout out Genius. But the, “My mama taught me better than,” that part-
Regina: Mm-hmm.
Billy: … they have it as, like, “My mama thought me better than that.”
Regina: That’s… doesn’t even make sense. That’s what I hate about Google’s lyrics. It’s like-
John: So someone just spelled taught wrong?
Regina: Right.
Billy: It’s possible. But it could make sense, like, “My mama thought I was better than that. My mama thought me better than that.” I don’t know.
John: Oh, okay. Hmm.
Regina: I mean, their source is LyricFind. What even is that?
Billy: Yeah. Anyway, we’re gonna narrow in on, uh, a specific part of Regina’s first feminist anthem. The, the line that you completed, “I’m better than that, I’m not gonna diss you on the internet.” So…
Regina: Did someone diss Beyoncé on the internet?
Billy: What year?
Regina: No, or did, did Beyoncé diss someone else on the internet? Well, she says she’s not going to, implying that someone else did. Or was she better than someone’s ex because her ex… Like, if she was dating someone and their ex had dissed them on the internet, then she would be like, “I’m not gonna do that because I’m better than that.”
Billy: Okay, well, so the song, the song is essentially about shake-ups in the group itself, Destiny’s Child.
Regina: Oh, I see.
Billy: As you may or may not know, Beyoncé and Kelly, who are cousins, were originally in the group with LaTavia and LeToya, the two other members. And then they were kicked out, and they claim, they claim it was mostly because of disputes with Mathew Knowles, Beyoncé’s father. Um, which might be related to why he has a rare writing credit on this song. But, uh, basically Destiny’s Child brought in Michelle and someone named Farrah Franklin to replace them. And Michelle and Farrah were actually in the Say My Name music video, even though they weren’t the original singers on the track. But then shortly after that, Farrah left the group, so she was just, like, there lip syncing in a music video and then performing with them a few times and then gone. And then it was just the trio, Beyoncé, Michelle, and Kelly.
Regina: The trifactor, if you will.
Billy: Right. But yeah, so the song is about the group. Like, that’s what they’ve said publicly. Like, here’s an interview from 2001.
Playback: Destiny’s Child is like- And this is us. Yeah…. the Survivor series for trying to see which, which member is gonna end up the last on the island, which one is gonna get voted off. It was a joke. Uh…
Billy: So this is in 2001. She’s talking about how people were saying it was like Survivor with Destiny’s Child ‘cause this was around the same time Survivor came out in…
Regina: Wait, which interview is this? Can you, can you post the link? I won’t click it. I just wanna see the photo of where the interview was.
Billy: Sure, this is MTV, 2001.
John: Wait, Regina, are you gonna be able to, like, know this interview by, by seeing it?
Regina: No. May… Yeah.
John: You have, like an encyclopedic knowledge-
Regina: No, I really don’t at all.
John: … of the interview?
Regina: Except that, like, I really was obsessed at this particular moment in time.
John: Huh.
Regina: Um, and, like, you know, I don’t remember a lot of things, and so it’s, I… it’s interesting to me when, like, things like this will jog my memory.
John: Yeah.
Regina: Oh, wow. Okay, continue.
Billy: We found the one thing that you remember from- … the early 2000s.
Regina: What if all of my memories just suddenly came back-
John: This is the key?
Regina: … because of this one interview?
Billy: You’re welcome.
Regina: I don’t know if that’s a good thing.
Billy: So yeah, so the story goes, like, people in the press, people in general were like-
Regina: Yeah.
Billy: … “Oh, Destiny’s Child, it’s like Survivor.” ‘Cause Survivor was, like, the hot new show at the time. And they’re like, “They’re, like, voting people off and, like, bringing in new people,” whatever.
Playback: It was, it was actually cute, and it inspired me to write a song. And I was like, “You know, we can use that negative thing and turn it into a positive thing and do a whole Survivor video and laugh at them and make a fool out of them.” And that’s what we did. And at the same time, it’s a positive song, and it’s something that we can relate to and something that a lot of people can relate to, not only people, you know, that’s been through things in groups, but surviving cancer and AIDS and, um, racism and all different things that happen in life.
Billy: So, you know, it’s supposed to be, like, you know, you can kind of apply it to anything. It’s pretty general, but there are some specific lines that are, like, there’s, like, something about, like, “You said I wasn’t gonna sell without you.”
Regina: Right. Mm-hmm.
Billy: “I sold nine million.” Um, so yeah, so it’s very specifically about their breakup. But to your point, you were like, “Did someone diss Beyoncé on the internet? What year is this?” And that was sort of my thought. So, this song was recorded in 2000, the year 2000. It was released in 2001. So, just for perspective, Tumblr was founded in 2007. Twitter was founded in 2006. YouTube was founded in 2005. Facebook, 2004. MySpace, MySpace 2003, so MySpace didn’t even exist yet. So, like, what is she talking about? Who’s dissing who on the internet? Like-
John: Xanga?
Billy: Well, okay, so Xanga, Live-
John: LiveJournal?
Billy: Xanga, LiveJournal, and Blogger were all founded in 1999.
Regina: Oh my God, did Beyoncé have a Xanga?
Billy: Well, that’s what I’m wondering. Is there a secret Beyoncé Xanga out there?
John: I assume you’ve been looking for it on Xanga?
Billy: I’ve been looking around. I don’t know.
John: So-
Billy: It’s hard to search this stuff.
Regina: It is so hard.
John: S- k- you wanna see something really funny?
Billy: What?
John: Billy, g- go to xanga.com/wp-admin.
Billy: What?
Regina: No.
Billy: Yep. Xanga is a WordPress.
Regina: Oh shit, do I still have… I bet I could guess my Xanga logins.
Billy: Well, they got, they got purchased by WordPress, right?
John: No, they didn’t get purchased. Somebody revived them and migrated all of Xanga onto a WordPress install. Regina, I think you might’ve missed your window to recover your Xanga during that process.
Regina: Damn it.
John: There was, like, a Kickstarter or something. It, it was like a one-time, “We’re bringing back Xanga. You can get your old login. Fill out your shit to bring it over.” Uh, and now it’s Xanga is a WordPress.
Billy: Yeah, it’s just wild to me. It’s like, yeah, maybe they’re talking about, like, personal blogs ‘cause that was just becoming a thing, uh, around the time when they would’ve been writing this. But even still, that was, like, right on the cutting edge. I mean, they were young. It makes sense, like, uh, they were probably, like, savvy with all this stuff. But, um, you know, I think they were around, like, 19, 20 at the time.
Regina: Do you think, like, email newsletters were a thing? Or not newsletters, but, like, remember those chains that people used to send? Like, I wonder if there was something like that.
Billy: Yeah, I mean, I guess it could’ve been email, but it’s, like, who’s worried about people emailing?
Regina: ‘Cause they had Bills Bills Bills, remember?
Billy: What about Bills Bills Bills?
Regina: Bills Bills Bills- … had the whole thing of, like, oh God. Hold on. I, there’s a specific line I’m thinking of. Something about email?
Billy: It’s like, “Can you pay my email bill?”
Regina: Yeah, can you… Yeah.
Billy: “Can you pay my ISP bill?”
Regina: Can’t you pay my video bill?
Billy: Uh, I don’t remember the lyric in that song, but if you could find it, I’d be interested because that came out earlier. That was-
Regina: Right.
Billy: … with the original lineup. But it’s, like, like, AOL Instant Messenger came out in 1997. Maybe they’re, like, worried about, like, people sending IMs to each other, nasty IMs to each other, spreading rumors?
Regina: Mm-hmm.
John: What’s the year this interview happened?
Billy: Uh, the interview was in 2001, but the song was recorded in 2000 and then-
John: Hmm, okay.
Billy: … the music video, I think it was, like, January 2001, and the album came out sh- shortly after that.
John: I searched xanga.com for Beyoncé, and so far the earliest post I could find is 2005.
Billy: Hmm.
John: And it was like watching the Oscars. It’s like a minute by minute.
Billy: I would-
John: Which is kind of interesting. It’s like a live blog before there were live blogs.
Billy: I doubt she opted in to save her personal Xanga, if there was one.
John: No, no, no. I’m not saying her personal. I’m saying other people, like, talking about her on-
Billy: Oh, dissing her on Xanga.
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Billy: Yeah. That’s true. Yeah. It’s just, I’m curious ‘cause it’s just like, it’s not like there was a lot of, uh, publications that were doing digital first stories and, like, rumors at the ti- like, in the year 2000, I don’t think.
John: It’s kinda cool. Most-
Billy: Um.
John: … Xanga, uh, Google results have the year in, in the, in the little snippet.
Billy: Hmm. Okay, that’s useful. I mean, I could dive into it more. I went through a bunch of interviews, like, trying to find, uh, clarity on the specific point about the internet. Uh, sh- they never really mention it. Um, but it’s, what’s really interesting to me about it, is that it, like, as a line in a song that’s specifically referencing the internet that was written in 2000, it holds up remarkably well, right? Like, like, “I’m, I’m not gonna be, like, petty and diss you on the internet.” Uh.
Regina: Yeah.
Billy: That’s such a, like, 20 years later, that’s like, that seems extremely relevant, right?
Regina: Yeah.
Billy: So there’s other songs from around that time period where people tried to work internet themes into their music. There was, uh, a song from Britney Spears in 1999 called Email My Heart.
John: Oh, that’s right.
Regina: Oh my god.
Billy: So it goes: Email my heart and say our love will never die and I- … I know you’re out there and I know that you’ll-
Regina: Oh my god.
Billy: … I know that you still care. I know that you care. Email me back and say our love will be alive. Forever email my heart. Whoa.
John: This was a simpler time.
Billy: Yeah. Uh, so that doesn’t hold up as well because it’s like, email is not really relevant in that sense, right? It’s not used for, like, personal communication like that, really. Um. There’s a song called My Internet Girl by Aaron Carter that was released- … in 2000, uh, which also seems to mostly center around, center around email when it’s being specific. Um, so everyone was started talking about email at the time. That was the hot thing. You know, blogs were starting to emerge, but like, sort of the mainstream idea of the internet was like, you know, email and AOL keywords and whatever. Um-
Regina: Kiss Me Through The Phone. I guess that was a lot, a long time later, but-
Billy: Soulja Boy? Yeah. That’s like-
Regina: Yeah. Kiss Me Through The Phone.
Billy: Uh, what? That’s probably like 2007?
Regina: Yeah, that was like-
Billy: 2008?
Regina: Yeah, 2007, 2008.
Billy: There’s a lesser known song from 2001 from an artist, uh, who was then called Brittany Cleary, I believe is how you say her name, called I.M Me.
John: Wow.
Billy: She released this independently.
John: Wait, wait, wait. You’re saying the parentheses are AOL Chat Love Song?
Billy: Yeah. This song is amazing. This song is actually great. It holds up just by being so specific. Um, hold on, let me just play a little of this. Welcome- Oh. Oh my God. Oh yes. Wait for it. Any second now. Let’s meet at the same time. Same place. Send a JPEG, I wanna see your face. Girlfriend, send an IM. TTYL. No time to spell. Oops, there goes that little bell. Bye bye for now.. BBMN. Just wait for the chorus here. Hey, LOL. G2G.
John: Oh my God.
Regina: Oh my God.
Billy: Gotta go but baby watch for me ‘cause I’ll be right back. BRB. So sign, sign on in IM me. Okay, anyway. Um, you have to watch the m- the official music video. It’s incredible. Uh, but s- she actually-
John: What’s the name of that song?
Billy: It’s called IM Me.
John: IM Me. I don’t think it’s on Spotify.
Billy: Uh, it might be under a different name because… So she released that song independently and it started getting a lot of attention and became a hit. And so Jive Records signed her in the summer of 2002, but they asked her to change her name due to the fact that Britney Spears was also on Jive Records. And so they’re like, “There’s not room for two Britneys.” So she changed her name to Nikki Cleary.
Regina: Oh, I knew Nikki Cleary.
Billy: Yeah.
Regina: She did the Mean Girls thing.
Billy: Yes, she did a, she had a song on the Mean Girls soundtrack.
Regina: And when you first said it, I was like, “Wait, do you mean Nikki Cleary?”
Billy: Yeah. So her actual name is Brittany and Jive Records was like, “No.”
John: There’s only one album on Spotify from 2003 for Nikki Cleary.
Billy: Yeah. She, so she only really had that one album and then, um, kinda it di-
John: But it’s called IM Me? ‘Cause it’s not here.
Billy: No, no, no. This song was before that album.
John: Oh.
Billy: So it was like a hit, it was just like sort of like a one-off hit that she released independently, and so she got signed to Jive Records. And then I think just got cau- caught up in all this BS because her name was also Brittany-
John: Oh my God.
Billy: … at the same time that Britney Spears was popping. But yeah, I would actually love to talk to her. I bet she has some interesting tor- stories to tell. She’s like, she’s like my age. So that song is incredible, but also like, it just is extremely dated, right? It’s like a specific time and place. Whereas the Beyonce one is just, it just becomes more relevant. So I’m, you know… I don’t really know where I’m going with this. I just think- … and that’s why I’m talking about it on this bonus podcast because it is something I could investigate. Like, was there a secret Beyonce Xanga blog? Or was there a secret, uh, you know, Latavia Xanga blog? Um.
Regina: Or email newsletter.
Billy: Or email news- uh, I don’t even think email newsletters were really a thing at the time.
Regina: No, I’m sure… By newsletter I mean like those chains that you forward-
Billy: Oh, yeah.
Regina: … where it was like your whole family will die from the plague-
Billy: Right.
Regina: … if you don’t forward this.
Billy: But if you do, Bill Gates will-
Regina: Right.
Billy: … send you $100.
Regina: Bill Gates will pay your internet bill for one month.
Billy: Wait, did you ever figure out what the line from Bills, Bills, Bills was?
Regina: No. I looked it up and it was basically, it wasn’t what I thought it was. No, Bills, Bills, Bills was very traditional.
Billy: Yeah.
Regina: It was like pay my telephone bill, pay my automobile.
John: Automobile is so good. Good line.
Regina: Automobile is the perfect line.
Billy: Anyway. I just bring this up, yeah, one, because like I wanna know what the internet drama Beyonce was worried about in 2000.
Regina: Yeah.
Billy: Um.
Regina: Oh my God, I wanna listen to that. I did discover-
Billy: Oh.
Regina: … that MTV News was publishing-
Billy: Hmm.
Regina: … at the time. And they were writing about Destiny’s Child. But I can’t find anything dissing Beyonce. Well, that’s the thing. So and there’s something in the Genius song page which says like they actually got sued for the song because like the other members of the band said that they had violated this thing where they said they weren’t gonna dis them.
Billy: Rights, yeah.
Regina: Ah, an NDA. Right, which I think is interesting where they’re like, “Oh, you vi- you dissed us on the internet in this song where you say you won’t diss us on the internet.”
Billy: Right.
Regina: You know who you could talk to, is Rob.
Billy: Rob Markman from Genius, who was at M- MTV News?
Regina: Yeah, did he work for MTV News at the time?
Billy: I think he was there a little later than that, but, you know, he’d probably know who to talk to. I don’t know, maybe I should talk to him. Um, but I kinda w- uh, yeah, I-The reason I wanted to bring this up here was, like, it’s one of those where it’s like, I feel like the answer might be very unsatisfying. Like, it might just-
Regina: Mm-hmm.
Billy: … be like, “Yeah. The, there was an article on MTV News that, like, fueled the drama.”
Regina: Or even just, like, they were starting to see people dissing people on MTV News.
Billy: Right.
Regina: It might not even have had anything to do with them directly. It might have just been like, “Oh. This is a thing people can do now.”
Billy: So, if anyone knows Beyoncé or, uh, you know, anyone who was in Destiny’s Child at any point, who knows what-
Regina: Mm-hmm.
Billy: … internet dra- drama they were referencing, I would love to know. It’s not, you know, this, this annotation isn’t on genius.com. So, it’s not-
Regina: It is not.
Billy: It’s not, uh, doesn’t seem to be known, or widely known-
Regina: Right.
Billy: … at least. So…
Adrianne: I will say, also, the music video for Jennifer Lopez - If You Had My Love-
Regina: Mm-hmm.
Adrianne: … is very internet. She’s in her house, it’s full of webcams, and then it’s like she’s got her website.
Regina: Oh, yeah.
Adrianne: And then there’s, like, a dude watching her through her website.
Billy: So, that was 1999, it looks like.
Adrianne: And then there’s, like, Matrix code.
Billy: Yeah. I mean, it was really, it was really, like, a hot thing to work the internet into your pop stuff at the time.
Regina: I gotta listen to Survivor. I gotta listen to some Ashlee Simpson. Like, I have to go down a whole spiral, now.
Billy: My point is, Beyoncé got to the core of the internet before anyone else figured it out.
Regina: Oh, Ashlee and Evan? I forgot about that.
John: Okay. Uh, I got another one. Here’s what I, here’s what I’ve got. I, I’ve been spending time reading old newspapers lately, uh, specifically newspapers, n- newspaper issues that were published, um, just before and after 9/11. Because I have a hunch that there’s a bunch of stuff reported around that time that got completely overshadowed by 9/11.
Regina: It’s like the McMillions thing.
John: Yeah. That story go, like, lost in the media because 9/11 happened right at the, in the midst of it. And, like, everybody forgot about it until now, and there have to be, like, more stories like this, so I’ve been, like, sifting through, currently, the New York Times.
Adrianne: Do you guys remember a story that The Outline did about a Malheur Wildlife Refuge-type standoff-
John: Mm-hmm.
Adrianne: … involving some hippies and a marijuana farm?
John: Yeah.
Adrianne: And it happened the week before 9/11? There was a raid and two people died, and then, and they set all the weed on fire. I don’t know if they did that. I’m just imagining that that had- … had to happen at some point.
Billy: Yeah.
Adrianne: And then 9/11 happened and it never, and it was completely buried.
John: Yeah.
Billy: So, what? So, you got more of those kinda stories, Jon?
John: Sort of. I’m finding stuff and, and a couple of the things, I think, would make regular epi- good regular episodes. But I found this article that is n- not a mystery, it’s just a world that I hadn’t known about before finding this, and I also like the writing style of this article. So, I’m gonna read you a condensed version of it, and we can experience this story together, from the past. So, the, the headline is, “A Pigeon King Watches His Flock and His Back.”
Adrianne: This sounds like a film.
John: Yeah.
Adrianne: The Pigeon King.
Billy: Is this about Mike Tyson?
John: It’s- What? A pigeon king?
Billy: He was in, he was into pigeons. Oh, he, uh, he was probably in jail at this time.
John: And that’s the reason you don’t think this article is about him?
Billy: Okay. Let’s see.
Regina: What -
Billy: Well, hold on, I’m reading-
Adrianne: What newspaper is this in?
John: Oh, sorry. This is from The New York Times on August 20th, 2001.
Regina: Okay.
John: Uh, here’s the lede-
Billy: No, he was released, he was released in 1995.
John: Okay.
Regina: Wow. So, you were wrong all-
Adrianne: Plenty of time to cultivate pigeons.
Billy: Yeah.
John: So, it starts off, “The boys down at the Beersel Pigeon Racing Club were not happy Thursday evening when Eric Lindborg strolled in, late as usual. It wasn’t just the clothes though; he did stand out. The club, the back of the bar and an RV campground makes most dog tracks look like Ascot on Derby Day and a T-shirt over a beer belly pressed for evening dress. Mr. Lindborg wore an orange polka dot shirt, a blown-dry coif and a gold chain. Rather, it was the pile of pigeon panniers that he was packing and the wad of cash.”
Regina: Sorry. Pigeon what?
John: Panniers. Panniers?
Adrianne: Panniers are the side-saddle bags on your bike. I know that.
Regina: Oh. Yeah, yeah.
John: Anyway, he had one of those for pigeons, I guess, and a wad of cash. “Mr. Lindborg entered 25 flying nags in Saturday’s 250-mile race from Viereckton, France, and bet 25,000 Belgian francs, about 5,000 on one race, he’s said, and has won up to 15 and $115 on his or her stable, Mr. Lindborg’s entry skewed the pool. So, did the intimidation factor. ‘Now none of us have a chance,’ grumbled one member at, at the registration table. ‘He’s the champion.’”
Adrianne: This is beautiful, a beautiful scene.
John: Yeah.
Adrianne: When you said nags, I thought you meant he was betting on horses, but-
John: No. This is pigeons.
Adrianne: It’s just pigeons. They’re all racing pigeons?
John: They’re racing pigeons. “Belgium’s 60,000 breeders, in a population of 10 million, make it the Kentucky Bluegrass country of pigeon racing. And Mr. Lindborg, 43, is the big Colonel Sanders of squab on the wing. Known as Wonder Boy since he began winning trophies in 1977, he says his best birds sell to Taiwanese and Japanese buyers for up to $90,000.”
Regina: What?
John: “Others say he’s being modest for tax reasons. Top birds fetch double that.”
Billy: Huh.
John: “In the suspicious world of pigeon fanciers, when a man is that kind of kingpin, one word comes to mind: dope. ‘Who knows?’ says Philip- … Philippe Matan-”
Regina: Sorry. What?
Adrianne: They’re putting dope in the pigeon panniers.
John: Exactly. “‘Who knows?’ said Philippe Matan, the bar owner who has run the Beersel Club most of his life, shrugging. ‘Maybe he’s got something they can’t find yet.’ Mr. Lindborg vociferously denies it. ‘He wins consistently,’ he said, ‘because he had good bloodlines and training techniques, and he cleans the coops himself.’”
Billy: Yeah.
John: “He’s, he spends eight hours a day on his 350 birds, keeping his bank job to forestall the tax man from treating them as more than an amusing hobby. He divulged one secret: he keeps his newborns in the dark for four months. Stimula- simulating winter stimulates feathers.”
Billy: Right.
Adrianne: And feathers are good?
Regina: Yeah. Why are feathers good?
Billy: Have you ever seen a bird without feathers fly?
John: It’s a good point.
Regina: Are feathers necessary to fly?
Billy: I mean, if you saw a bird with feathers and a bird without feathers, which one would you think would fly faster?
Adrianne: Well, feathers could be drag.
Billy: What birds without feathers are you watching fly?
Adrianne: Counterpoint, have you ever seen a Boeing 37, 737 with feathers?
Billy: Mm. It’s a good point.
Regina: Good counterpoint.
Billy: That’s true.
Adrianne: It’s a good counterpoint.
Billy: That’s true.
John: They should’ve kept the Boeing in the dark for four months.
Regina: What if it turns out that the Boeing, with all the issues, had feathers?
Billy: Yeah.
Regina: That’s the common denominator.
Billy: I think that was it. Yeah.
John: Oh, my god.
Regina: Yeah. I think we figured it out.
Adrianne: That was the upgrade.
Regina: Yeah.
Adrianne: Didn’t work out.
John: Huge cover-up. Um, well, let’s get to the meat of this. Uh, “In top-level racing, there are so many ways to cheat that the Olympics and Tour de France look clean by comparison.” Uh, it was 2001, remember. “The sport has remarkably rigid rules and arcane gear, all aimed to keep owners honest.” Are you ready for this? “There is, for example, a mach-, a special machine just for slipping on numbered rubber leg bands.”The sealed clocks each owner takes home, into which his birds’ leg bands must be inserted as soon as they arrive, are set to a radio single, signal, beamed from Frankfurt. For a Saturday race, the birds must be turned in at local clubs in mid-week. That allows transport time, but also renders stimulants useless. When their panniers, the baskets they travel in, that’s what the pannier is. When their panniers, uh, burst open, some contenders have been found drumsticks up from caffeine overdoses.
Adrianne: Oh my god.
John: Uh, yeah. So apparently, these pe- uh, some, some con- some competitors or owners, uh, juice up their birds and then they have to leave them for a number of days, uh- … with the, with the race officials. Uh, and sometimes they, uh, they, they don’t make it. Um…
Adrianne: I’m just imagining the pigeons with little pigeon-sized coffee cups.
John: Slurp. A flask full of coffee.
Billy: I’m, uh, I’m imagining them with a regular-sized coffee cup, but they keep pecking their head at it and it just, like, splashes everywhere.
Adrianne: And the people at the next table are like, “God, pigeons are so annoying.”
Billy: Ugh, the pigeons.
Adrianne: Freaking flying rats.
Billy: Someone get the pigeons out of here.
Adrianne: But they’re actually world-class athletes.
John: They kind of are.
Billy: Yes.
John: Yeah.
Billy: And we would know that if 9/11 didn’t happen. Continue.
John: After banding, they go into special baskets, which go on special trucks, which go on special trains. Owners are kept away. Race officials on the trains may secretly reband the birds or write code words under their feathers. A contestant calling in a winner may be told, “Lift his left wing and read me what you find there.” The coop of a consistent winner like Mr. Limborg will be visited by veterinarians who will corner some of his champions, do whatever it takes to get them to turn over feces samples, seal the evidence in a sterile container and speed it to a lab. A, a confirmed positive means a three-year suspension.
Billy: Wow. So this was what year? This was 2001?
John:
Billy: So, they’re, they’re like ahead of most sports at that time.
John: Yeah, in a way.
Billy: Okay.
John: A three-year suspension for juicing your birds.
Billy: Right.
Adrianne: That’s why you gotta have someone on the inside.
John: Well, Mr. Limborg said his coop had been controlled 10 times. He failed once, six years ago, but beat the rap in court arguing that a jealous rival could have slipped a mickey into the basket watering troughs at the club.
Billy: Mm-hmm.
Adrianne: What?
John: He suspects eye drops with banned anti-inflammatories.
Billy: Wow.
Adrianne: That’s wild.
John: Also, it says he won in court, but what court sees this?
Billy: Mm.
Adrianne: Are there no cameras in the club?
John: I guess not.
Billy: This would make a good film.
John: It kinda would.
Adrianne: Oh, totally. It would be a great film.
Billy: I would fully watch this film.
John: By 1:00 PM on Saturday, race day, Mr. Limborg, back home in, uh, Bressagem, north of Brussels, was showing all the sideline cool of Bobby Knight. He paced the balcony of his coop, which is two stories tall and as long as a nine-car garage. A rival 15 miles to the south had called at 12:59 to brag that his first bird had landed. But the winner is the one showing the highest average speed, so Mr. Limborg could still take the prize. Hunching his shoulders, grimacing and clenching his fists, he scanned the sky as if he was expecting incoming mortar rounds, not birds.
Adrianne: Wait a second.
John: Yeah.
Adrianne: Math question.
John: Yes?
Adrianne: How is the bird showing the highest average speed not the bird that comes in first?
John: So it seems like they have to home, they have to home to their, to their, to the coop they know from one central place.
Adrianne: Oh, that’s so weird.
Billy: Mm-hmm.
John: But that’s the only way it could work.
Adrianne: Right, ‘cause they’re pigeons. Right.
John: I think they, they choose a location that is, like, roughly the same kind of distance away from, from the release point.
Adrianne: But then couldn’t you… Like, sprinting is easier than middle distance or long distance, so couldn’t you live slightly closer and then your bird can go faster the whole time because it’s not traveling as much distance?
John: That’s a really good question. I have no idea.
Adrianne: Yeah, it just feels like it wouldn’t… It’s not fair.
John: Maybe they rotate where the release is?
Adrianne: It must be far enough away that it can’t, that it’s not just a sprint for anyone. Right, right.
Billy: Imagine this as, like, an Uncut Gems type of film.
Adrianne: It’s so good.
John: S- uh, yeah, I can read you what’s on Wikipedia here. Um, p- pigeon racing has been described as a, a sport with a single starting gate and a thousand finish lines. In short, competing birds are taken from their lofts and must race home. Uh, the time taken and distance are recorded and the fastest bird is declared the winner. Races are generally between 100 kilometers, that’s 62 miles, and 1,000 kilometers, that’s 620 miles, in distance. Uh, in the United States, flights up to the equivalent of 1,100 miles have been recorded.
Adrianne: It seems like this crowd is sensitive to unfairness.
John: Oh, yeah.
Adrianne: So I’m guessing it’s not an issue.
John: Yeah. Should, should I finish out this, the, the article here?
Billy: Yeah, yeah.
John: But the winner is the one showing the highest average speed, so Mr. Limborg could still take the prize. Hunching his shoulders, grimacing and clenching his fists, he scanned the sky as if he was expecting incoming mortar rounds, not birds. When one appeared overhead, Mr. Limborg clucked, “Come, come, come, come, come.”
Adrianne: Come on, baby.
John: The first bird alighted casually at the coop at 1:16. Mr. Limborg stalked it in stiffly, averting his eyes and keeping his arms out to prevent second thoughts about freedom. Moments later, he shouted out the leg number to an uncle booking them in. Later, he would grumble that, uh, better clubs use microchips that would save him 20 seconds. Back on the balcony, he switched to swearing when a bird decided the roof was close enough to consider home. He threw the other birds out to encourage it to quit dawdling and swore louder as it hopped around, mulling it. After half an hour with 20 birds in, he calmed down. Calling other rivals, he estimated that he had taken the second place and that his first 15 birds might each win something from the betting pool. As for the missing five, well, that can be a sad story. Mr. Limborg said his would show up later, but Mr. Arnhem of the Bird Protection Society said his workers are often called to pick up exhausted racers that drop into fields and gardens. When they trace the owners through the leg bands, quote, “We get the same answer every time,” Mr. Arnhem said. “They say, ‘It lost, it’s no good, we don’t need it. You can just do this.’” He twists his fists saying, “Krrrch,” the unmistakable sound of bird neck ringing- … and make a soup with petit pois.
Billy: Wow.
John: And that’s the end of the article.
Adrianne: Brutal.
Billy: That’s rough.
Adrianne: That reporter was a real poet.
Billy: I know.
Adrianne: Yeah.
John: Yeah. Uh, Donald G. MacNeil, Jr.
Adrianne: Donny G.
Billy: Mm-hmm.
Adrianne: He seems like he still works at the New York Times.
John: Yeah, science, science and health reporter, specializing in plagues and pestilences.
Adrianne: Yeah.
John: Oh, wait, this is the guy who was on The Daily today.
Adrianne: What? Really?
John: Yeah.
Billy: No, it isn’t. I listened to it today. Was that really him?
John: I think it is.
Billy: Wow. The guy with the wipe down regimen? Yeah, yeah, oh, with the spray and the everything?
John: Yeah, I think it’s the same guy.
Billy: Wow.
John: Yeah, Donald G. MacNeil, Jr.
Billy: Wow, the attention, the attention to detail in how he, uh, wipes down a audio studio is very similar to his writing style. I mean that as a compliment.
John: I guess we should tell the listening audience that th- we’re recording this on March 12th, 2020 when, uh, the day most of the country has started reacting very extremely to the coronavirus.
Billy: Yes. So, is your point with all of this that, like, if it wasn’t for 9/11, this would be, this would be, like, a sport everyone knows about?
Adrianne: Right, like, it’d be in the Olympics?
John: No, that’s not my… No, that’s not at all my point.
Billy: We’d have a major league for this in the United States. It’d be, like, the MLB, the NBA, the NFL, and-
John: That’s what the… The NFL wouldn’t be around anymore. It would be the National Fanciers League.
Billy: Oh, right. Yes.
Adrianne: Makes sense, yeah.
Billy: So, is that what you’re saying, Jon? You think this would’ve been a bigger story if 9/11 hadn’t happened?
John: No. No, that’s not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying in, in-
Billy: Jon, what are you saying?
John: I’m not… This is the, this is the…
Adrianne: Jon, I under-understand.
John: No, what, what I’m saying is, I found this while I was looking for something that got lost.
Adrianne: And you just thought it was a fun little, fun little experience-
John: Yeah.
Adrianne: … that everyone should’ve had.
John: Yes, yes.
Adrianne: It should’ve gone viral.
John: No, that, I’m not even saying that. I’m just saying that I happened to find this and it was a world that I didn’t know existed that some people seem to know exists- … so I wanted to share with you.
Billy: Okay.
Adrianne: Yeah, okay. Fair enough.
John: I, what are we doing here? This is not…
Billy: No, no, no, no, that was perfect.
John: I do like that if if each of us shares something on this feed, we get roasted at the end for it.
Adrianne: I love a good roast.
Billy: Well-
Adrianne: Yeah.
Billy: … on that note, thank you all for listening.
Adrianne: Yes.
Billy: We’ll be back with more of this next week ‘cause we’re doing it every week. That’s the, the plan.
Playback: Hey, yeah, hold on now.
Adrianne: Are we really not gonna edit this?
Playback: Hey, yeah, hold on now.
Adrianne: We have to edit at least, like, a little bit.
John: Ugh.
Billy: Let it ride.
Adrianne: No.
Playback: Hey, L-O-L, G2G. I gotta go, but baby, watch for me ‘cause I’ll be right back, BRB. So sign, sign, sign on in. I am me. Hey, I am me.